So today was fun, wasn’t it WordPress & Thesis people? In case you missed it, here’s a brief rundown of what happened:
Update: Thesis now sports a shiny new Split license which should appease all you GPL lovers. Can we get some work done now?
- Bill Erikson sent out a Tweet explaining that WordPress had dropped him as a developer because he suppports Thesis (they feel Thesis violates the GPL).
- A bored 12-year old in Elbonia injected some malicious code into the Thesis 1.7 and 1.8 Beta releases, so that anyone installing the theme from these downloads got infected. It’s fixed now
- Matt smacked Chris across the face with a wet fish, suggesting he doesn’t know how to code (how many times has a WordPress site been hacked, Matt?)
- Chris shouted at Matt for an hour on Mixergy.
- Matt sounded bored, like he was reading from a script his lawyers prepared.
- Chris challenged Matt to a duel in the highest court in the land.
- Matt said he might just do that.
- Andrew Warner gave up trying to convince (a) Chris to go GPL with Thesis, and (b) Matt to leave Chris alone.
- #thesiswp trended on Twitter and everybody from me to a dodgy affiliate in Delhi chimed in with an opinion that at the end of the day, doesn’t matter one little bit. Even so:
My thoughts on Thesis vs. WordPress
Chris Pearson has built a product that’s allowed me to build a business. Of course, so has Matt Mullenweg. So both of these guys are kind of a big deal in my life and I don’t like the way the argument is going.
Yes, I agree that Matt has licensed WordPress under the GPL and he staunchly supports that. And yes, I understand that Chris doesn’t like his business being indirectly controlled by WordPress’ illogical (in a traditional business sense) choice of licensing.
But going to court will end in tears for someone, and both business models will be harmed in the process.
What could WordPress do?
They could relax the GPL. Custom theme designers get paid money by their clients to use WordPress’ code on their projects, and you don’t see them releasing the fruits of their labour under the GPL. So how is this different for a premium theme developer?
They could stand by their guns and sue DIYthemes. Maybe they’d win. But if they don’t they’ll be the laughing stock of the Internet.
They could ignore Chris Pearson and Thesis, and focus on making their software so damn good that people no longer have an incentive to buy premium themes, thereby winning the fight with a superior product.
What could Chris Pearson do?
He could carry on as is, and maybe get sued, maybe not. His community (me included) are very loyal and most of us simply don’t care about the GPL. We just want a development framework that makes sense. For me, Thesis does that.
He could develop a competing platform to WordPress; Thesis as a standalone product. Personally I don’t think this would work because the sheer number of WordPress plugins that would need replicating to make the framework commercially viable is staggering.
He could accept the GPL and change the way he does business. This is probably the easiest way out, but Chris is a very opinionated person and has some of the strongest beliefs of any man I’ve ever known. I don’t see this happening unless it makes perfect sense for Thesis. And in Chris’ mind, it doesn’t.
What I’d like to see happen
I’d like every single plugin and theme developer to release their work outside the GPL, and charge money for it. This would instantly get rid of 90% of the crap plugins, themes and add-ons that don’t work and aren’t supported. And it would leave behind a core product offering that is easily robust enough to be used for any Enterprise web project.
I’d like WordPress to charge for their product too. The money they make from sales could be spent on Forum moderators that answer questions in a helpful manner instead of shouting ‘SEARCH THE FUCKING FORUMS, MORON’ every time someone new asks something. DIYthemes has some of the best forum moderators known to man. I dare you to ask a Thesis question on the forums and not get an answer from Godhammer, Girlie or Phil. And if they can’t help, another developer will.
I’d like to see Matt and Chris get in the ring and fight it out. It won’t solve anything but it’ll be fun to watch…
I know a lot of people have opinions on this matter, and I’d like to hear yours.
Hello, I'm Dave Wilkinson, a front-end web developer from North Yorkshire, England. I work with web designers, SEOs and entrepreneurs around the world to convert Photoshop designs into pixel-perfect
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I think he has a different point of view. My goal was to let each guest express his point of view. Not to find one person right and another wrong.
“All this philosophical “free” stuff is wasting a lot of productive time. Free enterprise is CLEAN and, as you pointed out, weeds out the crap from the gold. ”
This is so funny! Why do you use then this “free” stuff like WP? Why don’t use some of the commercial CMS products?
This hypocritical view really gets me. You want that “free” stuff because it has the market potential, but you don’t want to share your goodies with the rest of us.
If you read the history of GPL (http://www.free-soft.org/gpl_history/) this is exactly how it started – because of people like Chris, who are greedy enough to take advantage of free code and turn it into a proprietary commercial product for sale.
Taking the apartment analogy – you know the rules, and if you don’t like them, then don’t move in. But don’t complain later that you cannot have your dog there. You don’t like – just move out. There are plenty of commercial software around.
Don’t try to have your cake and eat it too!
“most of us simply don’t care about the GPL. We just want a development framework that makes sense. For me, Thesis does that”
Sorry, but it sounds like: “I don’t care if the CD was pirated or not. I just want to listen to good music”. Replace the CD with Gucci bag, Rolex watch, etc. and you will get the picture about the moral and ethical values behind this statement!
Is it really what your values and ethics are all about?
Hey Dave! that “dodgy affiliate in Delhi” is me and i think there is nothing wrong in what i said. something which is built on wordpress should respect its license and more than that, the “community” behind it…and yes, i have not said it to have some impact either on Matt or on Chris..I mentioned what i felt.
.-= Jitendra´s last blog ..WordPress 30 released =-.
Developers & Users just want to have a good product and don’t care about the gpl side of it.
On the legal side.. the court system is designed to settle disputes. It’s the American way… It’s right there with the right for free speech.. free enterprise.. and the right to arm.
Totally agree with you, as someone who loves both WP and Thesis and depends on both of those for my own work as well as what I do helping other bloggers.
.-= Doniree´s last blog ..San Diego- CA – July 2010 =-.
My take is basically this: Two grown men both want to do what they believe is right, but at some point or another resort to 5 year old-ish tactics.
Please leave each other alone and just continue making kickass web apps please. Its what you both do best. Leave the philosophical bs out of it please.
.-= Adam Baird´s last undefined ..If you register your site for free at =-.
WP can’t relax the GPL. It isn’t their license. They are bound to it because they forked a project that was licensed under it.
The only real course of action is a court room, because the issue is much bigger than Matt or Chris. Whether or not a theme/plugin is by default a derivative work needs to be settled once and for all so everyone can adapt and get back to doing business.
If Matt wins, he gets to complete his vision. But if he loses, the landscape changes dramatically because far more developers will move to a non-GPL model, which IMO would be a good thing because the issue of high volume low quality crap in the WP is huge.
real issue is two different interpretations of IP law. If, by legal definition a theme/plugin is automatically a derivative work, then Chris is and everyone who followed his lead is wrong and will need to make changes. If Matt is wrong, he’ll have to shut up and
Both sides have received legal opinions supporting their interpretation. Until that gets argued in court, neither is right.
I like how you separated the men (& their faults) from the issue here. But the last comment above – Mike re the apartment is true too.
For most of the technical/ licensing / lawyer types I think it boils down to – Bill owns an apartment and puts a sign out in the park next door “no pets”, You agree no pets. Then you get a pet. What we need to know, is does the sign you posted next door give you the right to actually keep pets out? It is THAT grey – and thats why a real court case would be interesting. Albeit – have resounding ramifications for a large segment of internet developers.
Let’s say I rented an apartment that specifically didn’t allow pets in my rental agreement, and then I got a dog. It sounds like your guys’ argument would be “Hey ,he’s just a guy that loves dogs and is trying to enhance his life by getting a pet. Plus, the dog is so cute and some of his neighbors love it. The landlord should just let him be.”
Landlords are not the most loved individuals. so maybe it’s not the best analogy but my point essentially is “ignorance of the law is no defense”. You may loves you some Thesis but the fact is he is in material violation of the license agreement is a real problem.
It’s just like any other business. If one of your suppliers acts unethically, then they may get in hot water and it may disrupt your “supply chain”. You unfortunately will have your business impacted, but that doesn’t mean that the supplier should get off scot-free.
Well said, Dave. I missed the drama (had my head buried in a Thesis project – go figure!) and enjoyed reading both the update and your take on it.
You state you’ve built a business on Thesis. Similarly, we’ve added a new arm to our business based on Thesis & Wordpress that allows us to help small businesses create a self-sustainable, marketable web presence.
We’re happy to pay for Thesis – and we’d pay for Wordpress & top-quality plugins too.
Glad to be part of this Thesis Community.
.-= meleighsmith´s last blog ..On Completing your Google Local Listing =-.
“Custom theme designers get paid money by their clients to use WordPress’ code on their projects, and you don’t see them releasing the fruits of their labour under the GPL. So how is this different for a premium theme developer?”
This is quite different, the custom theme designers are not distributing the theme, it’s used by a singled client. The client is then free of modifying the GPL protect theme files, or asking another developer to do it, without asking permission from the original custom theme designer. Consider that the themer is selling the artwork, functionality, customization and not the php files.
Also The fear Chris Pearson has is not real. Basically what’s asked of him is to license the php files has GPL, all the others, CSS, JS, JPG, PNG, PSD, whatever, can have a different license. And the brand is/can be trademarked. There are several layers of protection.
Anyway, just my 2 cents to this debacle.
My personal opinion on this matter: http://fuckgpl.com/
Awesome run down, thanks dave.
Fabulous perspective on the issue and the drama. I couldn’t agree more! And Cynthia – I’m totally with you regarding the willingness to pay a licensing fee for WordPress, great themes, and great plugins in order to provide the best to clients.
Thanks, dave!
.-= Christine Green´s last blog ..Against Peace =-.
Amen. Developers just want something that WORKS for their clients. Stop the fighting, please.
.-= Greg Rickaby´s last blog ..Add an anchor to NextGEN Gallery Image Browser and increase your page-views by 100x =-.
Thanks for the kind mention, Dave.
.-= Phil Barron´s last blog ..Witnesses- yes…to treachery =-.
Um…what YOU said. I couldn’t say it better.
These are echoes of the private conversations that go on in our studio every day. I don’t even WANT free stuff – I just want stuff that WORKS, so I can do business and serve clients. They pay me – and I pay for tools created by Apple and Adobe and 37Signals and others to help me serve THEM.
I’d gladly buy a per-site license for WordPress and purchase premium plugins like GravityForms and frameworks like Thesis for every single project so that I can provide my clients with the best product possible.
All this philosophical “free” stuff is wasting a lot of productive time. Free enterprise is CLEAN and, as you pointed out, weeds out the crap from the gold.
I just want to keep doing business.
.-= Cynthia LaLuna´s last blog ..Why We Love Designing Websites for Lawyers =-.
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